Not What I Expected

[DoveGrey]

Thanks for that, David. I hadn't looked at the study yet, and am a little surprised that a study cited by an NIH publication would have such a limited sample.

[David]

In fairness to the researchers, men's attitude toward female orgasm probably hasn't been researched very thoroughly, and they did accurately report what the literature says.
However, it's important to look at the detail of these things in order to understand not only what the studies actually say, but also how strong the evidence base is.

[PaulB]

Maybe it has to do with unlearning how to orgasm. The virgin who hasn't masturbated may learn to association the feeling of penetration and penile stimulation with orgasmic pleasure, and the woman who masturbated may have to unlearn just orgasming through clitoral stimulation.

Which is why I'd really like to see data on other sex acts.

Given many women are not built to have an orgasm during intercourse (the clit is too far north) we are talking a subset of women here. What about the rest?

[PaulB]

One more thing: I was intrigued by the statement that men want their partners to orgasm. That's basically the opposite of what I hear from women. (I don't talk to men about this in real life, so I don't know how they feel.). Most women who have complained to me have felt that their men just don't care.

I suspect there is a lot of axe-grinding there from those who have it bad, while those who have it good don't speak up. And of course, men are going to say it matters to them even if it does not.

The bigger issue, IMHO, is WHY it matters to a man. Is it just a pride thing, or does he really care about what the woman wants?

So from the standpoint of a confidante, what is my best way to go about guiding the woman to open these lines of communication?

I know that at least some of those women have not expressed the problem in a way that their guy heard. I can't say how common it is, but it's a factor.

As Link+Zelda pointed out, if she doesn't care, he can't do anything about it. I actually talked about this in a recent XY Code post - Sex Is For You Too. Stand Up For That!

[DoveGrey]

if she doesn't care, he can't do anything about it. I actually talked about this in a recent XY Code post - Sex Is For You Too. Stand Up For That![/align][/color]

Your post is spot on. There are myriad reasons why some women won't stand up for themselves. A common one that I hear is that "He just doesn't care." I was hoping to use the cited study to point out that statistically speaking, men do care. And use that to bolster a woman's confidence so she feels emboldened to open the conversation where she might not have before. However, with such a small sample size, I'd rather not open that can of worms.

No matter, there are other avenues from which I can approach conversations like this. I shall bow out of this and let you all stick to the topic of masturbation.

[MrMarried]

Maybe it has to do with unlearning how to orgasm. The virgin who hasn't masturbated may learn to association the feeling of penetration and penile stimulation with orgasmic pleasure, and the woman who masturbated may have to unlearn just orgasming through clitoral stimulation.

Which is why I'd really like to see data on other sex acts.

Given many women are not built to have an orgasm during intercourse (the clit is too far north) we are talking a subset of women here. What about the rest?

Well, the (external) clitoris is not the only thing being stimulated. Maybe some women who jump straight to intercourse learn to have orgasms with little to no clitoral stimulation because they weren't 'programmed' to need clitoral stimulation by masturbation.

[PaulB]

There are myriad reasons why some women won't stand up for themselves. A common one that I hear is that "He just doesn't care."

Bit of circular logic there?

[PaulB]

Well, the (external) clitoris is not the only thing being stimulated. Maybe some women who jump straight to intercourse learn to have orgasms with little to no clitoral stimulation because they weren't 'programmed' to need clitoral stimulation by masturbation.

That may be, but there is no data to back it up.

[strawberryblonde]

Given many women are not built to have an orgasm during intercourse (the clit is too far north) we are talking a subset of women here. What about the rest?

Well, the (external) clitoris is not the only thing being stimulated. Maybe some women who jump straight to intercourse learn to have orgasms with little to no clitoral stimulation because they weren't 'programmed' to need clitoral stimulation by masturbation.

That may be, but there is no data to back it up.

I'll volunteer some anecdotal evidence. I have never learned to masturbate to the point of orgasm. And I don't think I have EVER been able to have a clitoral O. If I am going to get an O, it's going to be vaginal. And up until a few minutes ago, I would have said only from PIV.

[Olorin]

One more thing: I was intrigued by the statement that men want their partners to orgasm. That's basically the opposite of what I hear from women. (I don't talk to men about this in real life, so I don't know how they feel.). Most women who have complained to me have felt that their men just don't care.

I suspect there is a lot of axe-grinding there from those who have it bad, while those who have it good don't speak up. And of course, men are going to say it matters to them even if it does not.

The bigger issue, IMHO, is WHY it matters to a man. Is it just a pride thing, or does he really care about what the woman wants?

I am a DH who cares very much if my DW orgasms during our sexual encounters. It is not a matter of pride, but a matter of wanting her to feel the same pleasure/physical/spiritual connection with me that I feel with her.

Also, it is very arousing to me to hear my wife when she orgasms. She is not too loud, but even her quiet moans are thrilling to me.

As I have recounted before, it took us 20 years of marriage before DW had her first orgasm. I can't put into words how frustrating and painful those years were for us (sexually...most other aspects of our marriage were good). Likewise, I can't fully express how happy I was when we finally discovered she could orgasm using a wand style vibrator. Even though I had been having orgasms with her up to that time, I started enjoying sex and my orgasms more once I knew she could also have an orgasm.

I know that DW can feel physically connected to me (to a certain degree) without having an orgasm, however, those sexual encounters when she has an orgasm seem especially deep and rich for both of us. The 'afterglow' seems much different to me in a way that is hard to describe. It is as if we have arrived 'at the same destination'.