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sexual vows? (think promises or commitment)

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David
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Re: sexual vows? (think promises or commitment)

Post by David »

As I've repeatedly said, understanding what the original vows mean is central to the premise of the post!

Most if not all of the things in point 1 *were* included in my wedding vows, so the question is moot.
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Re: sexual vows? (think promises or commitment)

Post by MrEden »

NewWifeNewLife wrote:Since people seem to ignore the OP and going off on a tangent about wedding vows, I'm gonna restate the OP below....
OK, what threw me was the term "Vows." I am going to take the liberty of reframing your question in the context of a "marriage contract" rather than "vows." A contract is a more appropriate place for sexual details. I don't think many people would be OK with saying "I vow to have intercourse at least three times a week and give cunnilingues at least once a week" in front of a general audience.

Indeed, Jews have detailed marriage contracts that include things such as frequency of intercourse.

If I were to have a section on sex in a marriage contract, it would be general in nature and more about attitudes than a defined frequency or specific acts. Indeed, a couple with no experience would not know what their future desires will be. Rather than specifying a minimum or maximum frequency, agree to joyfully strive to meet the other's needs, whatever that may be, at the same time being understanding and gracious when difficulties in your spouse's life make meeting your needs difficult.

Rather than list agreed-upon and and no-go activities, agree that there will be growth in the marriage bed. Each partner is free to express their desires, and to decline some requests for now and revisit them later, with the understanding that both partners are willing to grow beyond their current comfort zone.

Most importantly, I would include something about the Biblical role of sex in marriage. Sex is the foundation of marriage. It joins the couple physically, emotionally, and spiritually, and must be prioritized over other aspects of marriage.
Last edited by MrEden on Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: sexual vows? (think promises or commitment)

Post by Oldbear »

Not long after we were married, over 50 years ago, we shared, in appropriate contexts and situations, that we are soul and sole mates. For us, this underscores our wedding day vows. As soul and sole mates we are committed and bound spiritually, relationally, emotionally, and physically . . . for life!
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Re: sexual vows? (think promises or commitment)

Post by newwifenewlife »

MrEden wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:43 pm OK, threw me was the term "Vows." I am going to take the liberty of reframing your question in the context of a "marriage contract" rather than "vows." A contract is a more appropriate place for sexual details. I don't think many people would be OK with saying "I vow have intercourse at least three times a week and give cunnilingues at least once a week" in front of a general audience.

Indeed, Jews have detailed marriage contracts that include things such as frequency of intercourse.

If I were to have a section on sex in a marriage contract, it would be general in nature and more about attitudes than a defined frequency or specific acts. Indeed, a couple with no experience would not know what their future desires will be. Rather than specifying a minimum or maximum frequency, agree to joyfully strive to meet the other's needs, whatever that may be, at the same time being understanding and gracious when difficulties in your spouse's life make meeting your needs difficult.

Rather than list agreed-upon and and no-go activities, agree that there will be growth in the marriage bed. Each partner is free to express their desires, and to decline some requests for now and revisit them later, with the understanding that both partners are willing to grow beyond their current comfort zone.

Most importantly, I would include something about the Biblical role of sex in marriage. Sex is the foundation of marriage. It joins the couple physically, Sex must take priority over the non-sexual aspects of marriage, and prioritized accordingly.
thank you for your thoughtful response.

I actually did use the term commitment and contract in my original post to help people have a framework and descriptions for what this might look like. It seems people latched onto a word and wouldn’t go into the thoughtful exercise it was designed to be.
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Re: sexual vows? (think promises or commitment)

Post by Irnmyk »

MrEden wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:43 pm
Indeed, a couple with no experience would not know what their future desires will be.
This point alone is what made the OP moot to me.

It, to me, was like asking; now that you know what you know about your career at its advanced state, what courses would you go back to school and take?

Obviously, with 20/20 hindsight, I might have done things differently, school wise, and marital sex wise. But, I'm not going back to school, and even if I did, it's too late to have any effect on my career if I did pick up those courses. Same with my marriage.

I think that the OP, @NWNL, having himself launched into a subsequent marriage with all the good and bad of the previous marriage(s) in his rear view mirror phrased the question from that point of view. But, I don't think that that point of view applies to young first time newly weds characterized by the statement I quoted above from MrEden.

Now, if for, God forbid reasons only able to be conjectured here, I were to enter into a subsequent marriage, I would definitely have some understandings with any future bride, but, I'm not sure I'd have them in our vows - or even anything that contained contract like language. Just mutual understandings.
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Re: sexual vows? (think promises or commitment)

Post by newwifenewlife »

Irnmyk wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:52 am
MrEden wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:43 pm
Indeed, a couple with no experience would not know what their future desires will be.
This point alone is what made the OP moot to me.
...
Obviously, with 20/20 hindsight, I might have done things differently, school wise, and marital sex wise. But, I'm not going back to school, and even if I did, it's too late to have any effect on my career if I did pick up those courses. Same with my marriage.

I think that the OP, @NWNL, having himself launched into a subsequent marriage with all the good and bad of the previous marriage(s) in his rear view mirror phrased the question from that point of view. But, I don't think that that point of view applies to young first time newly weds characterized by the statement I quoted above from MrEden.
...
That is all true but it doesn't change the point and purpose of my OP and subsequent posts. Yes, my wife and I have hindsight and experiences that have shaped us. We all have. At the same time, I believe the questions I posed were not only an exercise in thought and reflection (which digressed into the weeds unnecessarily) but can also be done post wedding by any and all of us individually (whether a spouse is onboard or not) AND as a couple. (Let's also remember the fact that much of TMB is a public forum which I'm sure we have singles and engaged couples on here looking for thoughts, ideas and resources.) Dad always said, "People unwilling to change were either perfect to begin with or mighty stubborn thereafter." And don't even get me started on people not addressing their marriage issues in a timely manner because sadly, I'm dealing right now with two different couples who have ignored their issues and warning signs as well as wise counsel that's been given for at least two years or more, enabling poor and/or sinful behavior (out of submission & respect or just being an ostrich or selfish) and now things are BLOWING up. One of them just separated this week and my heart breaks because of the relationship I've had with both of them for nearly 20 years and it didn't have to be this way. So yeah, I'm willing to suggest the "what if's" and pose questions because I've also lived it where I didn't address or get the help my wife, and apparently, I needed so despite my best efforts, my previous marriage ended. I'M TIRED OF OUR ENEMY HAVING HIS WAY IN MARRIAGES OF PROFESSING CHRISTIANS!!! Wrecking them or at least, hindering or blinding them from the blessings of God in the marriage AND marriage bed.

Regarding singles & unmarrieds, a couple with no experience SHOULD be asking many of these questions about meaning, intent, purpose. There are all sorts of books out now for pre-engagement, engagement and marriage encouragement and self-help. And let's be honest here, sexually speaking, right or wrong, in this day and age, most people (Christ-followers or not) have had some type of sexual experience voluntarily or sadly, unvoluntarily, before they turn 18. People are bombarded with sexual content from a younger and younger age. We will have "adults" potentially getting married in the next few years that have had the ability to view porn film via tech in their hands their entire life, let alone view it secretly or publicly on the computer or TV at home for decades to speak nothing of "regular" movies and TV. Parents first and secondly, many churches (not all) have done a complete disservice to young couples preparing for marriage BUT it's never too late for them or for our own marriages. This is just one of the reasons for the TMB forum to encourage & educate singles now and couples.
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Re: sexual vows?

Post by LBD »

Irnmyk wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:45 am So, to further the thought process, I'll postulate a parallel question: If we added a specific vow never to divorce to the "standard" wedding vows, would the divorce rate go to zero?
Classic! There is a law against murder, theft....etc, etc. Folks go to jail every day for those acts despite the laws being clearly known. And Jesus took it a step further didn't He. Because the disciple of Christ should not simply try to hold up the letter of the law, but also the principle of thought behind it. Should the disciple of Christ do any different within marriage? Of course not.

The problem is we can't all agree what those principles really mean, can we? Because we fail to first remove our own will from the equation.
It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance. -Thomas Sowell
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Re: sexual vows? (think promises or commitment)

Post by MrEden »

Even if the couple were both married before, they have had no experience with each other. From years and years of reading here and on other forums, I never cease to be amazed at how different every couple's experience is. I think the safe approach for any marriage would be to approach it as if you were both virgins. Heck, I've been married to the same woman for 40 years. Do I have sex figured out? Nope. The gal is a moving target. Keeps it interesting tho.
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Re: sexual vows? (think promises or commitment)

Post by newwifenewlife »

MrEden wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:21 am Even if the couple were both married before, they have had no experience with each other…. I never cease to be amazed at how different every couple's experience is. I think the safe approach for any marriage would be to approach it as if you were both virgins….
YES!!! This is TOTALLY true for all. It is also quite scary. I was MORE fearful of my second wedding night and beyond than my first. If you had bad experiences, you still don’t know. If you had a “good one” will it be “the same or better”? Will it be “worse”? Whatever those things mean is individually different for every person. And yet, people still remarry unprepared physically, emotionally, and spiritually so could it really come down to dealing actively with the hand one is dealt/chosen? We can’t change our past sexually or relationally, but it can be redeemed, restored and healed through sex and in a SAFE and committed marriage relationship. God’s work is amazing.
…, I never cease to be amazed at how different every couple's experience is. I think the safe approach for any marriage would be to approach it as if you were both virgins. Heck, I've been married to the same woman for 40 years. Do I have sex figured out? Nope. The gal is a moving target. Keeps it interesting tho.
And this is why we need to have better conversations and communication with our spouse. How many times are there spouses spilling their guts here on TMB when they really need to be having a hard and honest conversation with their spouse? BUT they refuse to over and over, instead complaining as if their situation is always different and has never occurred before in the history of the world.

I would submit is starts with us individually making vows/commitments/contracts with ourselves before we ask our spouse to join our journey after we’ve walked and developed our habits. We can make a “covenant with our eyes” (Job 31). We can channel all our sexual energy towards our spouse and marriage. We can commit to growing ourselves spiritually, relationally, physically and sexually. Then we can invite our spouse to join us on the journey because we also becoming a healthier, more attractive spouse. Yes, that doesn’t always work for a variety of reasons at times, especially with an emotionally and spiritually immature person…but this also puts us in a better place to see the situation and when needed, send a reasonable and thought out “shot across the bow” without going with the full “nuclear” option at first. Sometimes it takes that, sometimes it takes removing ourselves from a situation to see things truly as they are OR for our spouse to get a dose of reality.

All this goes back to, my original questions, what would one want to have a discussion about? Make a commitment to? And then, if so, what’s stopping one from doing it?
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Re: sexual vows? (think promises or commitment)

Post by LBD »

MrEden wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:21 am The gal is a moving target. Keeps it interesting tho.
:lol: No truer statement has ever been made on this forum! ::clap ::rotfl
It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance. -Thomas Sowell
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