DISCUSSION - Watching porn WITH your spouse

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Link+Zelda
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Re: DISCUSSION - Watching porn WITH your spouse

Post by Link+Zelda »

KatieMarie wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:38 am Aside from the sin aspect of it, the people involved in porn are in a lot of cases victims of sex trafficking, and that’s not ok, ever!
While "a lot" is a subjective term, as I mentioned (and backed up with data) earlier in this thread, that's largely a bogus argument. It may have applied 2 decades ago, but in the world of OnlyFans and similar, it doesn't hold up.

I really wish people would stop making trafficking argument, because it's fairly easily refuted (or can be avoided/circumvented by only watching certain types/sources of porn). A strong case against porn can be made without referencing human trafficking, and that's a much more solid foundation to build from. Starting and staying with the sin aspect is a much better approach.

This is no way means that I support human trafficking or porn, or that I think that 0 porn involves trafficking.
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Re: DISCUSSION - Watching porn WITH your spouse

Post by KatieMarie »

I really wish people would stop making trafficking argument, because it's fairly easily refuted (or can be avoided/circumvented by only watching certain types/sources of porn). A strong case against porn can be made without referencing human trafficking, and that's a much more solid foundation to build from.
”Force, fraud or coercion” is the definition that I am going by. Further, I strongly disagree that “a lot” is wrong, especially since sites like PornHub have quietly removed thousands of videos of underage kids means that it is “only a little”. We will have to agree to disagree.
Last edited by Link+Zelda on Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added quote code.
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Re: DISCUSSION - Watching porn WITH your spouse

Post by johnnyutah »

If the argumentation of our moral convictions, beliefs, and world views was supported by citing the abuses of a system (technologies, systems, institutions) then we'd all be guilty of violating every last single one of our moral convictions.

The argument is whether the Bible presents a clear and absolute stance that choosing to entertain recorded images of others engaged in sex is against God and his design for each one of us as human beings (whether single or married) and is thereby counted as sin and the individual a perpetrator.

Regarding "trafficking": it is now ubiquitous, is pandemic level, and this would include "internet porn". Trafficking for internet porn has only grown exponentially in scope & scale since the internet was made widely available to the consumer in the middle 90s. That train left the station a long time ago: there's no stopping it or calling it back.

Just my 2-cents...
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Re: DISCUSSION - Watching porn WITH your spouse

Post by proverbs519man »

I agree with those who do not like the trafficking argument. It really is not the point even though it is a horrible evil.

I am sure my wife and I could make some money by being online somewhere. Neither of us are super body conscious and we could wear masks or obscure faces or pick camera angles...etc. And sure, it is not like the thought had never occured to me (money is the root of all evil of course). But just cause we would get income off of it doesn't mean anyone should participate in such a sin.

It still is wrong even if the participants are doing it voluntarily.
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Re: DISCUSSION - Watching porn WITH your spouse

Post by Link+Zelda »

KatieMarie wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:10 am ”Force, fraud or coercion” is the definition that I am going by. Further, I strongly disagree that “a lot” is wrong, especially since sites like PornHub have quietly removed thousands of videos of underage kids means that it is “only a little”. We will have to agree to disagree.
I provided numbers and sources for my statement in my earlier post. Please feel free to offer counter arguments or show where my numbers were wrong.

johnnyutah wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:38 pm Regarding "trafficking": it is now ubiquitous, is pandemic level, and this would include "internet porn". Trafficking for internet porn has only grown exponentially in scope & scale since the internet was made widely available to the consumer in the middle 90s. That train left the station a long time ago: there's no stopping it or calling it back.
Do you have data to back this up? The most authoritative source I could find on trafficking stopped providing numbers in their yearly reports over a decade ago, but the trend was down prior to that. Porn as a whole HAS increased dramatically, making the fraction that is generated from trafficking likely a small % of what it was 15-25 years ago. This is why I am so opposed to the "trafficking" argument--people making that argument are two decades behind the trends and leave many outs for people to engage in porn from a variety of sources where trafficking wouldn't come into play.

proverbs519man wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:27 pm I agree with those who do not like the trafficking argument. It really is not the point even though it is a horrible evil.
...
It still is wrong even if the participants are doing it voluntarily.
THIS is exactly the point, and why the trafficking argument is not a good angle. There are plenty of options for what is called "ethically sourced" porn these days, which people could use to avoid the "trafficking" argument. One could also use animated porn to get around that argument. That's why pointing out the sin issue is so much better.
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Re: DISCUSSION - Watching porn WITH your spouse

Post by johnnyutah »

Link+Zelda wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:08 pm
KatieMarie wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:10 am ”Force, fraud or coercion” is the definition that I am going by. Further, I strongly disagree that “a lot” is wrong, especially since sites like PornHub have quietly removed thousands of videos of underage kids means that it is “only a little”. We will have to agree to disagree.
I provided numbers and sources for my statement in my earlier post. Please feel free to offer counter arguments or show where my numbers were wrong.

johnnyutah wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:38 pm Regarding "trafficking": it is now ubiquitous, is pandemic level, and this would include "internet porn". Trafficking for internet porn has only grown exponentially in scope & scale since the internet was made widely available to the consumer in the middle 90s. That train left the station a long time ago: there's no stopping it or calling it back.
Do you have data to back this up? The most authoritative source I could find on trafficking stopped providing numbers in their yearly reports over a decade ago, but the trend was down prior to that. Porn as a whole HAS increased dramatically, making the fraction that is generated from trafficking likely a small % of what it was 15-25 years ago. This is why I am so opposed to the "trafficking" argument--people making that argument are two decades behind the trends and leave many outs for people to engage in porn from a variety of sources where trafficking wouldn't come into play.

proverbs519man wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:27 pm I agree with those who do not like the trafficking argument. It really is not the point even though it is a horrible evil.
...
It still is wrong even if the participants are doing it voluntarily.
THIS is exactly the point, and why the trafficking argument is not a good angle. There are plenty of options for what is called "ethically sourced" porn these days, which people could use to avoid the "trafficking" argument. One could also use animated porn to get around that argument. That's why pointing out the sin issue is so much better.
Hi Link+Zelda,

I'm a data analyst by trade, and have a 30+ year career as a technologist in one of only two meccas of computer software in the United States.

It would take too much time to compile sources and aggregate the myriad statistical data points that support the paragraph in my post that you responded to and I don't want to do the work for you.

Take the time to go beyond page (1) of a filtered (algorithmic) & monetized set of search results on Google and you'll be on your way to assessing the catalysts & root causes of the exponential rise in global human sex trafficking over the last 30 years.

A good start would actually be to read the book "Hurtling Toward Oblivion" versus opening an internet search browser.

It was never my intention to be curt within this thread, but you referenced my post specifically and requested that I provide you with backup.

Thank you, Link+Zelda
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Re: DISCUSSION - Watching porn WITH your spouse

Post by Douglas »

My personal belief is that watching porn with your wife is a violation of the marriage bed designed by God. As Christians we have the Spirit of God that lives in us and as people not of this world it’s brings Christ into the marriage bed.

With that said, my wife and I watched porn once together while having sex to spice things up and change how the baby making results were going. It was her suggestion to just change things. In the end it wasn’t that great and we both felt it was a sin to watch and engage in sex while watching others. It was our fleshing taking over not Gods Spirit.

That’s my 2 cents on the subject
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Re: DISCUSSION - Watching porn WITH your spouse

Post by Link+Zelda »

johnnyutah wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:09 am I'm a data analyst by trade, and have a 30+ year career as a technologist in one of only two meccas of computer software in the United States.
You aren't the only one here with an expertise in data analysis. And an argument from authority (and not even one that can be confirmed) really isn't a good argument.
It would take too much time to compile sources and aggregate the myriad statistical data points that support the paragraph in my post that you responded to and I don't want to do the work for you.
You say you want to respond to my post, but this is a non-response.
Take the time to go beyond page (1) of a filtered (algorithmic) & monetized set of search results on Google and you'll be on your way to assessing the catalysts & root causes of the exponential rise in global human sex trafficking over the last 30 years.

A good start would actually be to read the book "Hurtling Toward Oblivion" versus opening an internet search browser.
What an assuming and insulting thing to say. Go back and look at the sources I use and quote. Are the US State Dept and the Polaris Project, both of which are specifically commissioned against human trafficking, "filtered and monetized" for Google? Even if they are, which is doubtful, can you explain how those data are wrong? Keep in mind that these sources are ones specifically against human trafficking! I'm using their data, not some sort of paid-for "think tank" data that has its sources in the porn or trafficking industry.

You ask me to "take the time," but you seemingly don't even take the time to read my original post on this, which I linked to recently even, to address the numbers. I'm sorry, but I've already taken the time, and I'm not going to take more until someone actually provides something substantial to refute it.

Again, this is in no way supporting porn. It is wrong, and we need to call it out for the sin that it is rather than focusing on one narrow aspect that (a) may not be that big a portion of the porn community, and (b) can be easily worked around through watching only certain types of porn.
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Re: DISCUSSION - Watching porn WITH your spouse

Post by johnnyutah »

Link+Zelda wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 3:41 pm
johnnyutah wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:09 am I'm a data analyst by trade, and have a 30+ year career as a technologist in one of only two meccas of computer software in the United States.
You aren't the only one here with an expertise in data analysis. And an argument from authority (and not even one that can be confirmed) really isn't a good argument.
It would take too much time to compile sources and aggregate the myriad statistical data points that support the paragraph in my post that you responded to and I don't want to do the work for you.
You say you want to respond to my post, but this is a non-response.
Take the time to go beyond page (1) of a filtered (algorithmic) & monetized set of search results on Google and you'll be on your way to assessing the catalysts & root causes of the exponential rise in global human sex trafficking over the last 30 years.

A good start would actually be to read the book "Hurtling Toward Oblivion" versus opening an internet search browser.
What an assuming and insulting thing to say. Go back and look at the sources I use and quote. Are the US State Dept and the Polaris Project, both of which are specifically commissioned against human trafficking, "filtered and monetized" for Google? Even if they are, which is doubtful, can you explain how those data are wrong? Keep in mind that these sources are ones specifically against human trafficking! I'm using their data, not some sort of paid-for "think tank" data that has its sources in the porn or trafficking industry.

You ask me to "take the time," but you seemingly don't even take the time to read my original post on this, which I linked to recently even, to address the numbers. I'm sorry, but I've already taken the time, and I'm not going to take more until someone actually provides something substantial to refute it.

Again, this is in no way supporting porn. It is wrong, and we need to call it out for the sin that it is rather than focusing on one narrow aspect that (a) may not be that big a portion of the porn community, and (b) can be easily worked around through watching only certain types of porn.
Hello Link+Zelda,

Like I said originally, you decided to take the path of "calling me out" by requesting me to site my sources. That is always a straw-man of the ignorant and arrogant. I don't care if I insulted you as the original insult was laid on by you when you put forth your passive-aggressive response requesting me to site sources and questioning my credibility. Which, BTW, you have done now for a second time just overtly and straight on. Requesting to site sources is, again, a straw-man of the ignorant and in this case the garden variety basement keyboard warrior.

My advice for you still stands: go read a book and educate yourself, just a little, and hopefully that will put you on the path to better insights & understanding.

It's absolutely obvious that you are fully ignorant of even the surface principals in data analytics and by siting compiled summaries from institutions presented to you on page (1) of your Google search presents you as having a hue of intelligence in this realm: it does not. The debate at hand is individuals who are trafficked for the production of internet pornography.

I don't care anything about the page (1) results that you sited from your basement Google searches: I'm too steeped in the history of the industry, both as a technologist and a professional, to entertain the notion that they carry the slightest amount of weight whatsoever that can go any distance in support of an all-up conclusion.

If you can tell me how many companies are bidding to advertise against your single click when browsing anything while connected online, and how much they're paying to advertise against that click, and how fast the click-to-bid-to-advertisement presented is transacted, and how many bids (from users within the U.S. only) every single second, and total dollar amount bid for all transactions (every single second), I will do your homework for you, compiling & aggregating my evidentiary support. Don't fool yourself, being a VPN superhero provides you no immunity from this process.

Thank you, LInk+Zelda!
Last edited by SeekingChange on Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed quoting issue
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