PDA and Arousal

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Thomas
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Re: PDA and Arousal

Post by Thomas »

MrEden wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:41 am I think you (and practically everyone) are attaching blanket immorality to the term "lust" that simply is not scriptural.
I have seen the following and similar explanations of the Greek word translated to lust on several trustworthy Christian sites:

The most common words translated as lust in the Bible are epithumeo, epipotheo, and orego. They all mean to desire, to covet, to long for intensely, to set one’s heart upon. This word is actually used in a positive sense in Matt. 13:17; Luke 22:15; 1Tim 3:1; Heb. 6:11; and 1Pet. 1:12. It is also used in a negative sense in Matt. 5:28; Rom. 7:7; 13:9; 1 Cor. 10:6; and James 4:2.
The NIV's is an unfortunate translation because the word epithumeo appearing in the verse is a verb (to lust) not an adverb (lustfully). The operative verb is not look, but lust. Jesus is not talking about how a man looks at the woman or thinks about a woman, but about a man lusting.
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Re: PDA and Arousal

Post by David »

When Jesus says that looking at a woman lustfully is sin, he doesn't qualify that by saying "only if you're married and the woman isn't your wife". In fact, I think it's clear that he's making an absolute statement that applies to all men.
The question really is what we understand the word translated lust to mean in the context of a couple who are dating or engaged but not yet married.
The question is not "does this prohibition apply" but "what does this prohibition mean".
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Re: PDA and Arousal

Post by MrEden »

David wrote:When Jesus says that looking at a woman lustfully is sin, he doesn't qualify that by saying "only if you're married and the woman isn't your wife".
What makes you want to ignore the word adultery/moicheia? Ignoring that, how can you explain how the verse doesn't apply to a man lusting for his wife? I realize the OP asked this question to generate conversation (which he did 👍), but I have heard the question asked by people actually questioning this.
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Re: PDA and Arousal

Post by newwifenewlife »

MrEden wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:20 am
David wrote:When Jesus says that looking at a woman lustfully is sin, he doesn't qualify that by saying "only if you're married and the woman isn't your wife".
What makes you want to ignore the word adultery/moicheia? Ignoring that, how can you explain how the verse doesn't apply to a man lusting for his wife? ...
Well, I don't know, maybe because a man (or woman) cannot commit adultery with their own spouse?
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Re: PDA and Arousal

Post by David »

As @nwnl points out, what a man gets up to with his wife cannot, by definition, be adultery.

I don't think it's helpful to make sweeping statements like "this doesn't apply to single people". Taken to its logical conclusion, that would mean it was fine for single men to watch porn or leer at women in bars.
What I think you're actually trying to argue is that there's nuance here. You're arguing that whilst some things must be kept for marriage, other things become more appropriate as you get closer to marriage.
It's true that it's good and healthy for an engaged man to have sexual desire for his bride-to-be, but that desire must be tempered by patience and a desire to wait until marriage. That's why we have to be careful with things like displays of affection which, whilst not sinful in themselves, can lead us into temptation.
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Re: PDA and Arousal

Post by MrEden »

Well, I don't know, maybe because a man (or woman) cannot commit adultery with their own spouse?
My point exactly. Neither can an engaged couple commit adultery with each other. Jesus must have said "adultery" as opposed to "general sexual sin" for a reason.
Taken to its logical conclusion, that would mean it was fine for single men to watch porn or leer at women in bars.
desire must be tempered by patience and a desire to wait until marriage
Agree 100%. But not sure that this is the best verse to make that case. And, I was talking about engaged couples lusting for each other, not porn or leering at women in bars.
What I think you're actually trying to argue is that there's nuance here. You're arguing that whilst some things must be kept for marriage, other things become more appropriate as you get closer to marriage.
Well said. Thanks!
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Re: PDA and Arousal

Post by David »

I think the point of difference comes from your assertion that an engaged couple can't commit adultery with each other.

Given that the Oxford English Dictionary defines "adultery" as being sex between a married person and someone not their spouse, it would be possible to argue that two unmarried people can't commit adultery. To do so would miss the point.
Jesus is teaching that sin is not primarily a problem of improper actions, but of corrupted desires. How that applies to an engaged couple is a little bit complex because they're not actually married but have pledged to marry. Suffice it to say that there are limits and boundaries that shouldn't be crossed before the wedding.
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Re: PDA and Arousal

Post by Irnmyk »

I don't think that Jesus had a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary at hand. Rather, to understand His words, we should use the definition of the word Adultery as it was used in His time. (You can google the Jewish definition of adultery if you wish.)

That said, that doesn't take away at all from what @David said in his last paragraph, which I absolutely, absolutely agree with.
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Re: PDA and Arousal

Post by DaveW »

SLS wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:12 pm 1. I would avoid using it as a tool of first resort. You don't want to use masturbation to tamp down sexual feelings every time you feel desire around your romantic partner. It can create a habit/pattern of trying to shut down or divert sexual desire.
Masturbating is the exact opposite of shutting down desire. My wife shut down desire as a 12-13 year old and really never got it back.
The truth is we all need to have self-control and that doesn't end when we are married.
It is interesting that Paul lists self control as a fruit of the Spirit, but never says it in regards to sexual desire. If you read 1 Cor 7 he says that if you have desire issues, get married. He does not say to exercise more self control. And yet that is where we seem to apply that the most.

Of course there are proper times and places for being sexual after you get married.

Personally, I like the idea of doing the big M before going out on a date if you know you will be getting aroused. And maybe even excusing yourself to the bathroom during the date to do it again if you need to.
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Re: PDA and Arousal

Post by newwifenewlife »

DaveW wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:21 am It is interesting that Paul lists self control as a fruit of the Spirit, but never says it in regards to sexual desire. If you read 1 Cor 7 he says that if you have desire issues, get married. He does not say to exercise more self control. And yet that is where we seem to apply that the most.
That seems like a terrible argument and logic. Neither did Paul talk about self-control with food, yet gluttony is a sin. You say he didn’t connect it to sexual desire, yet we still know that sexual immorality and lust is a sin. Fruits of the Spirit are a reflection of God’s presence and integration into our life as a whole, living with integrity. Are you going to try and suggest that all the other fruits of the Spirit are useless because Paul didn’t get specific? Probably not. Self-control is about controlling oneself & behavior in all different areas and situations.

Unlike what some women want, men can’t control their God-given sexual desire from occurring or a man’s visual nature BUT we can control how we share it, express it, and cultivate it. Exercising self-controls with one’s sexual desire or urge is like giving a river its banks and telling it where it can operate and flow. A river without banks, without edges, without control, can leave a path of destruction, flooding…but one with banks and boundaries can be channeled to power cities.
Personally, I like the idea of doing the big M before going out on a date if you know you will be getting aroused. And maybe even excusing yourself to the bathroom during the date to do it again if you need to.
If one have to excuse oneself on a date to go masturbate, I’d say someone has a problem, especially when guys can get erections multiple times an hour, let alone have a sexual thought. This is where boundaries and self-control come in.
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