Remarriage and adultery

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PaulB
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Re: Remarriage and adultery

Post by PaulB »

Claymore wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 4:57 pmWhy are we trying to make adultery seem like commonplace, "trivial" sins such as porn and unforgiveness? Any of these can poison the soul and the congregation, but why avoid dealing with adultery?
I'm not trying to do that. But I feel like it is sometimes used as a scapegoat sin. We deal with it as we should, or perhaps more harshly than we should, and we give folks a pass on a lot of other sins.

BTW, Bob Goff's devotional verse for today was John 8:3-11.

Bible:
3 As he was speaking, the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery. They put her in front of the crowd.

4 “Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?”

6 They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. 7 They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!” 8 Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.

9 When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. 10 Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”

11 “No, Lord,” she said.

And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”
What Jesus did there should be instructive. And what He DID NOT DO should be even more instructive.

Sin is not as black and white as the human mind wants to make it, and we can't deal with it using a set of rules. Only those who spiritually right with God have the place to even attempt to deal with the sin of others. Which is why I have a problem with a bunch of men who use porn disfellowshipping a woman who commits adultery. And given the rate of porn use by men in churches, including in leadership, this happens all the time.
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Re: Remarriage and adultery

Post by PaulB »

Mike smith wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 5:34 pm As far as I know the church is more than a bunch of Christian fellowshipers feeding each other, I think the great commission had more to do with seeking the lost. If there is no room for the lost, well…..
Great point. Thanks

It's not my job to clean folks up - that is the work of the Holy Spirit. Sure, God uses us for that, but all too often we get way ahead of God or fail to see what He is doing. I've seen people chased out of churches because they didn't change the way or as fast as folks thought they should.
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Re: Remarriage and adultery

Post by MrMarried »

The man in I Corinthians 5 was sleeping with (or had married and was sleeping with) his step-mamma. But Paul applies it to a list of sins so I would imagine adultery should be included.

Some things to notice-- discipline to be applied when church assembled-- when they gather, and the power of the Lord Jesus is present.

Compare to Matthew 18 where in a church discipline passage Jesus says whatever you bind on earth shall have already been bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall have already been loosed in heaven. For where two or three of you are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of you. Both passage talk about Jesus or Jesus' power being present.

To be done by the whole church, assembled, not in a back room by a pastor or group of elders The whole church has to implement the discipline-- not keeping company with or eating with the individual.

Matthew 18 deals with a sin against a brother. Offended brother is to confront the one who sins. If he won't hear, two or three witnesses, if he won't hear, the church. If he won't hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican. Many religious Jews did not eat with heathens and publicans.

I Corinthians 5 is different-- not a sin against an individual, but a moral sin. But I think if we take scripture holistically, first, as per Galatians 6, those who are spiritual confront the one who sins in a spirit of meekness, then it goes to the church if he won't repent. Then he gets a chance to hear the church and repent. If he won't, then church discipline. I think that is how it should be applied.

What kind of discipline? Deliver him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus. For his benefit-- so he can be saved. Whether it was this guy or not, someone repents after church discipline and II Corinthians says to accept him back.

Church discipline is for the church's benefit also. Why?

A little leaven leavens the whole lump. The sin can work its way throughout the church if not dealt with. Hebrews 11 tells readers to look diligently lest a root of bitterness spring up and defile many, lest there be a fornicator or profane person such as Esau who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. We often think of 'bitterness' as grudges or unforgiveness, but Peter used it of Simon the Sorcerer's sinful disposition.

The sin of a fornicator can defile many in the church. So we have to diligently look among the congregation to see if someone is falling into sin. Should we apply this principal when someone in our church is blowing up their marriage?

Now the mess of real life. If we go around asking people the background of their divorce, that can be seen as nosey, triggering. Confronting people about their sin and delivering them to over to Satan for their sin is just something most of us have no experience with. It goes against our culture. Church leaders might be afraid of lawsuits.

And it seems like half of people are divorced. Among single people, fornication seems like it may be fairly common. There may be a lot of porn users in church. This is a difficult situation to start practicing church discipline in, when we aren't used to it, and it goes against even some people's theology and understanding of the church.

And we all have sinned, too, and have had to receive God's forgiveness, so this is a difficult topic.
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Re: Remarriage and adultery

Post by LBD »

PaulB wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 1:03 pm
If either spouse has had sex since they divorced, then biblically that was adultery. And adultery breaks the covenant, ending the marriage.

Disagree. The marriage was already ended, the covenant broken (adulterated). Someone did something (or nothing). The covenant was broken when they split. Doesn’t justify sex outside of marriage though. But what if one spouse refused sexual relations for whatever reason for however long (years let’s say)? Who was at fault? At fault first?

As I read it, it's a once and done thing. You don't commit adultery every time you have sex.

I've discussed this with a few guys who were in that position. In most of those cases, the ex-wife had already been with another man. One fellow did wait for his ex to remarry.

I've never been in the position of being asked to do premarital or marry a couple where the other spouse had not been with someone.

As for a couple that has been living together, I think God sees them as married, and we should affirm that.


Where do you get that God sees them as married, and not just fornicators?
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Re: Remarriage and adultery

Post by LBD »

Claymore wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 5:40 am I've done all I can here. We are going in circles.

@Redspastor, listen to your conscience. If it doesn't seem right to you, don't do it.
I know exactly from where you come and derive your positions. The problem is by doing so, you align yourself with the scribes and Pharisees, and put more weight to “proper judgment” than to mercy and grace. Mainly because of fear. Perhaps we should consider dropping our stones… Else we need to be gouging out some eyes and cutting off some hands too.

“…but can he keep the loot?…” By using that, we equivocate people with property. The very reason God Himself (Jesus), gave Moses the edict of writ of divorcement - to protect Jewish wives thoughtlessly put away for the whims of heartless men. Where was the heart of God there?

“Are you bound to a wife? Seek not to be loosed. Are you loosed from a wife? Seek not a wife. But if you do marry, you do NOT sin.” There is no qualification of how the “loosing” took place. Any assumption would be adding to the scripture.
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Re: Remarriage and adultery

Post by RedsPastor »

LBD wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 6:47 am
Claymore wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 5:40 am I've done all I can here. We are going in circles.

@Redspastor, listen to your conscience. If it doesn't seem right to you, don't do it.
I know exactly from where you come and derive your positions. The problem is by doing so, you align yourself with the scribes and Pharisees, and put more weight to “proper judgment” than to mercy and grace. Mainly because of fear. Perhaps we should consider dropping our stones… Else we need to be gouging out some eyes and cutting off some hands too.

“…but can he keep the loot?…” By using that, we equivocate people with property. The very reason God Himself (Jesus), gave Moses the edict of writ of divorcement - to protect Jewish wives thoughtlessly put away for the whims of heartless men. Where was the heart of God there?

“Are you bound to a wife? Seek not to be loosed. Are you loosed from a wife? Seek not a wife. But if you do marry, you do NOT sin.” There is no qualification of how the “loosing” took place. Any assumption would be adding to the scripture.
LBD, were you writing that to me? I hope not….if so…you are incorrect in what you speak of.

I think we have beaten this particular horse at this point. I’ve read all points of view and am weighing them against the bible. As of now, the point is moot because the couple hasn’t approached me to marry them or even do pre-marital counseling with them.
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Re: Remarriage and adultery

Post by MrMarried »

LBD wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 6:47 am
Claymore wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 5:40 am I've done all I can here. We are going in circles.

@Redspastor, listen to your conscience. If it doesn't seem right to you, don't do it.
I know exactly from where you come and derive your positions. The problem is by doing so, you align yourself with the scribes and Pharisees, and put more weight to “proper judgment” than to mercy and grace. Mainly because of fear. Perhaps we should consider dropping our stones… Else we need to be gouging out some eyes and cutting off some hands too.

“…but can he keep the loot?…” By using that, we equivocate people with property. The very reason God Himself (Jesus), gave Moses the edict of writ of divorcement - to protect Jewish wives thoughtlessly put away for the whims of heartless men. Where was the heart of God there?
I think you are siding with the Pharisees on how to interpret the passage, not with Christ.

24 “When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, 2 when she has departed from his house, and goes and becomes another man’s wife, 3 if the latter husband detests her and writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her as his wife, 4 then her former husband who divorced her must not take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

Let's look here in Matthew 19.

6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”

8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.” (NKJV)

A disagreement here, also shown in Mark, is that the Pharisees believe that Moses commanded divorce, and the Lord Jesus said that Moses permitted divorce. So command versus permit. Jesus also put permitting divorce on Moses, not God.

It depends on how you interpret the Hebrew. The same sorts of tenses are used for commands and for setting up hypothetical legal cases. If we insist that these types of verbs refer exclusively to commands, the other passages would command rape and other terrible things. Jesus interpreted the Hebrew grammar differently.

Many modern translations translate Deuteronomy 24 as 'setting up a case' or a scenario. The NKJV is no exception.


24 “When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, 2 when she has departed from his house, and goes and becomes another man’s wife, 3 if the latter husband detests her and writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her as his wife, 4 then her former husband who divorced her must not take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.
(NKJV)

This sets up a scenario where there are certain conditions and the man gives his wife a certificate of divorce. What is the command? The former husband doesn't take her back. The rest is a case.

The Pharisees were taking the verbs about divorcing the wife as a command. The Hillel group focused on the woman not pleasing the man, and the Shammai group focused on the uncleanness the woman did, that it had to meet certain criteria to allow divorce. Yet each side accepted divorces based on the other criteria. Even today, 'Orthodox' Judaism, which is looks back to the Hillel set of interpretations historically, REQUIRES divorce in the case of adultery... assuming their are witnesses and the husband judges the witnesses valid. If his wife says she cheated to force a divorce, and he thinks she's lying, he doesn't have to divorce her according to their rules and interpretations. But divorce is a COMMAND for them.

Jesus took this as permitting divorce, but MOSES permitting the divorce. So there is this scenario-- enabled by Moses apparently who was letting them divorce with a certificate. The Lord speaks and forbids husbands taking wives back under the conditions outlined in the case above.

So Christ brings a higher standard. Recall that part in the sermon on the mount about your righteousness exceeding that of the scribes and Pharisees and all those more stringent requirements of Christ than what the Jews were doing. Jesus' teaching about putting away wives is based on the original revelation after woman was created, before Moses.
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Re: Remarriage and adultery

Post by PaulB »

PaulB wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 1:03 pm
If either spouse has had sex since they divorced, then biblically that was adultery. And adultery breaks the covenant, ending the marriage.

LBD wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 6:26 amDisagree. The marriage was already ended, the covenant broken (adulterated). Someone did something (or nothing). The covenant was broken when they split. Doesn’t justify sex outside of marriage though. But what if one spouse refused sexual relations for whatever reason for however long (years let’s say)? Who was at fault? At fault first?
Adultery is a very specific thing. Some folks divorce without either doing that. And as I read it, without adultery, there is still a bond, and when either has sex that is adultery.

I believe sexual refusal is a form of sexual immorality and does allow for divorce. But biblically, I can't say it allows for remarriage.

PaulB wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 1:03 pm
As I read it, it's a once and done thing. You don't commit adultery every time you have sex.

I've discussed this with a few guys who were in that position. In most of those cases, the ex-wife had already been with another man. One fellow did wait for his ex to remarry.

I've never been in the position of being asked to do premarital or marry a couple where the other spouse had not been with someone.

As for a couple that has been living together, I think God sees them as married, and we should affirm that.

LBD wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 6:26 amWhere do you get that God sees them as married, and not just fornicators?
It's fornication the first time. Maybe more than that. But when they live together and act like husband and wife, things change. Common law type thing.

The scriptural evidence is thin here. I'm not trying to tell you how it is, just how I see it.
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Re: Remarriage and adultery

Post by Claymore »

It's hard to stand for anything these days without getting called a Pharisee.

So the consensus is that adultery sanctifies itself through repetition. It's a sin the first time and a blessing every time after that. If that be the case, then you better hurry up and get to that second interlude before something happens.

And just like that, you've got a divorce epidemic. In this brave new world, what reason has anyone to heed Jesus' words against adultery? You can plan your whole divorce and remarriage knowing that the sin will take care of itself. And that's exactly what they're doing.

I ask you all to try and imagine how this would go if half of everyone were not already divorced - or, if you're old enough, try and remember it.
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Re: Remarriage and adultery

Post by mwpastor »

If we are going to play the "try to imagine" game. You have to play it the other way too.
Try to imagine a man.... not a christian... had sex.. got married... got divorced... got married again... has children... ... finds Jesus... confesses his sins and repents....

your position is this new marriage is adulterous and that he sins every time he is with his wife. that Jesus requires them to not be married any longer..... and because of mistakes he made when he was not a Christian he should now undo his current situation and make the rest of their life much more difficult for him his wife and his children.

Imagining that is imagining a Jesus whose grace is not sufficient to mend the brokenness of this man's past.
You can have that imaginary Jesus. Where the law is sufficient to move someone towards righteousness.

I'll keep imagining a world where Romans 2:4 is real and the patience and kindness of God leads to repentance.
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