Submission or Love?

How does God fit into our sex lives?
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Prov519
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Re: Submission or Love?

Post by Prov519 »

Plumpurple wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 8:16 am
Prov519 wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 7:59 am But the Bible does say that wives ARE supposed to love their husbands. The difference is; wives must be taught how.
Titus 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,..."

God commands Godly husbands to "love their wives" because they can apparently "just do it". But wives apparently must be taught by Godly older ladies who have "life experience".
The Bible doesn't give anyone an "out" to working toward loving their spouse. But this conclusion of "women need to be taught to love their husband" whereas men just know how to do it is not a sound flow of logic. If necessary, just read the rest of the verse that women "need to be taught to love their children" as well. I would say most women find that pretty natural, and most men do too. All of us are responsible for cultivating an attitude of love toward our spouse. I think you'll find many men have a habit of not framing their wife too generously in their mind either. We all need to work at taking our thoughts captive, intentionally seeing each other in love, and not blaming our spouse for our failings or lack of character.
Notice I said "apparently"; the reason I said "apparently" is because these scriptures simply give a command directly to husbands: "love your wives". But, instead of a direct command; "love your husbands" they command "aged women" to teach "younger women". So you tell me why that is? The adverb "apparently" was used because I had not made a "conclusion", otherwise I would have used a flat statement.

I believe one reason it says "to love their children" is because if Mom isn't treating Dad right in any form(and vis versa) it allows resentment, resentment fosters marital tension, tension leads to fighting, and it directly affects the kids. How can children feel loved and secure if Mom and Dad are not getting along?
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Re: Submission or Love?

Post by Plumpurple »

Prov519 wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:36 am Notice I said "apparently"; the reason I said "apparently" is because these scriptures simply give a command directly to husbands: "love your wives". But, instead of a direct command; "love your husbands" they command "aged women" to teach "younger women". So you tell me why that is?
I believe Titus is a call to represent Christ in a way that testifies truth to the culture around them and shows a better way of life. I think they're ascribed general morals for living and specifically how to care for those areas that are in their charge (for women, teaching other women how to love their husbands and children primarily. To speak with others without gossiping or slandering but instead be full of truth and kindness, etc.)

This article talks about what I think the context of Titus is about moreso. https://bibleproject.com/articles/titus/
It does include morals obviously, and I do think women should work toward loving their husband of course and be an example of love and commitment and humility, but I don't think men love perfectly either and are called to do so as well. Do you think women were called to respect their husbands but not men to their wives in that verse because women can just do that perfectly toward men and don't need to learn what that looks like or that men can do so perfectly toward women without learning how to better so it doesn't need to be said? The inverse logic doesn't work.
I believe one reason it says "to love their children" is because if Mom isn't treating Dad right in any form(and vis versa) it allows resentment, resentment fosters marital tension, tension leads to fighting, and it directly affects the kids. How can children feel loved and secure if Mom and Dad are not getting along?
That's all fine, but I don't think it's what is being focused on here exactly. While those things do come about, I don't think that "love your children" meant "love your husband because it leads to all this which will ultimately lead to your children living in a house that has marital tension and stresses them out." I think it meant "love your children." And we see other teachings about how to do that in the Bible: teach them the way they should go, don't exasperate your children, treat them with love talked about in 1 Corinthians 13, etc. I think we all have work to do in that area: women toward their husbands, men toward their wives, children to their parents; the only one who loves perfectly and "just does it" is God.
Last edited by Plumpurple on Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Prov519
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Re: Submission or Love?

Post by Prov519 »

Plumpurple wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:24 am
Prov519 wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:36 am Notice I said "apparently"; the reason I said "apparently" is because these scriptures simply give a command directly to husbands: "love your wives". But, instead of a direct command; "love your husbands" they command "aged women" to teach "younger women". So you tell me why that is?
I believe Titus is a call to represent Christ in a way that testifies truth to the culture around them and shows a better way of life. I think they're ascribed general morals for living and specifically how to care for those areas that are in their charge (for women, teaching other women how to love their husbands and children primarily. To speak with others without gossiping or slandering but instead be full of truth and kindness, etc.)

This article talks about what I think the context of Titus is about moreso. https://bibleproject.com/articles/titus/
It does include morals obviously, and I do think women should work toward loving their husband of course and be an example of love and commitment and humility, but I don't think men love perfectly either and are called to do so as well. Do you think women were called to respect their husbands but not men to their wives in that verse because men already do that perfectly toward women? The inverse logic doesn't work.
I believe one reason it says "to love their children" is because if Mom isn't treating Dad right in any form(and vis versa) it allows resentment, resentment fosters marital tension, tension leads to fighting, and it directly affects the kids. How can children feel loved and secure if Mom and Dad are not getting along?
That's all fine, but I don't think it's what is being focused on here exactly. While those things do come about, I don't think that "love your children" meant "love your husband because it leads to all this which will ultimately lead to your children living in a house that has marital tension and stresses them out." I think it meant "love your children." And we see other teachings about how to do that in the Bible: teach them the way they should go, don't exasperate your children, treat them with love talked about in 1 Corinthians 13, etc. I think we all have work to do in that area: women toward their husbands, men toward their wives, children to their parents; the only one who loves perfectly and "just does it" is God.

Yes, I already mentioned that husbands are commanded to love their wives. This seems to have the implication that husbands don't automatically do it and have to be told. Am I right in assuming that you are a woman? This conversation , I believe, is just one of the reasons that "aged women" were given the command to teach "younger women" and I realize the phrase "younger women" is subjective. Be that as it may, my point is that there are some things that men, such as myself, are not qualified to even attempt to teach women. Because some things are not received well coming from the opposite sex, such as "all he's after is"( fill in the blank)
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Re: Submission or Love?

Post by Plumpurple »

Prov519 wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:49 am Yes, I already mentioned that husbands are commanded to love their wives. This seems to have the implication that husbands don't automatically do it and have to be told. Am I right in assuming that you are a woman? This conversation , I believe, is just one of the reasons that "aged women" were given the command to teach "younger women" and I realize the phrase "younger women" is subjective. Be that as it may, my point is that there are some things that men, such as myself, are not qualified to even attempt to teach women. Because some things are not received well coming from the opposite sex, such as "all he's after is"( fill in the blank)
My issue isn't that women DO need to learn to love their husbands, but also that men need to learn to love their wives. I fully agree women need to learn to love their husbands and their children, just as men do as well. I think even when feelings come naturally, the execution of demonstrating love in our thoughts, feelings, words and actions is something we all have to work toward and it's silly to think men can "just do it and women need to learn how." We all have to make the choice to love, and we all have to work at learning and practicing how to do so well.
Prov519
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Re: Submission or Love?

Post by Prov519 »

Plumpurple wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:54 am
Prov519 wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:49 am Yes, I already mentioned that husbands are commanded to love their wives. This seems to have the implication that husbands don't automatically do it and have to be told. Am I right in assuming that you are a woman? This conversation , I believe, is just one of the reasons that "aged women" were given the command to teach "younger women" and I realize the phrase "younger women" is subjective. Be that as it may, my point is that there are some things that men, such as myself, are not qualified to even attempt to teach women. Because some things are not received well coming from the opposite sex, such as "all he's after is"( fill in the blank)
My issue isn't that women DO need to learn to love their husbands, but also that men need to learn to love their wives. I fully agree women need to learn to love their husbands and their children, just as men do as well. I think even when feelings come naturally, the execution of demonstrating love in our thoughts, feelings, words and actions is something we all have to work toward and it's silly to think men can "just do it and women need to learn how." We all have to make the choice to love, and we all have to work at learning and practicing how to do so well.
Maybe "just do it" was a poor form of attempting to discuss this. Fact is, in the scripture I referenced. the "aged women" are told to teach the young ladies; fair enough? But where in that same scripture are the old men commanded to teach the young guys to love their wives? That's puzzling to me. No doubt we all need guidance in every aspect of life but...know what I'm saying? I certainly wasn't trying to say that guys are so smart, they don't need any advice from anyone but the poor simple ladies have to be trained since they can't figure it out for themselves.

Maybe because, we all know that acts of kindness are pretty easy to observe and emulate for anyone, so a guy can figure that out and treat his Wife accordingly. Apparently things with the ladies go even deeper than that. I don't know, I really don't; but apparently "old ladies" know the things I don't.
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Re: Submission or Love?

Post by Plumpurple »

Prov519 wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 11:22 am Maybe "just do it" was a poor form of attempting to discuss this. Fact is, in the scripture I referenced. the "aged women" are told to teach the young ladies; fair enough? But where in that same scripture are the old men commanded to teach the young guys to love their wives? That's puzzling to me. No doubt we all need guidance in every aspect of life but...know what I'm saying? I certainly wasn't trying to say that guys are so smart, they don't need any advice from anyone but the poor simple ladies have to be trained since they can't figure it out for themselves.

Maybe because, we all know that acts of kindness are pretty easy to observe and emulate for anyone, so a guy can figure that out and treat his Wife accordingly. Apparently things with the ladies go even deeper than that. I don't know, I really don't; but apparently "old ladies" know the things I don't.
I see what you're saying, but I disagree with the line of logic. Titus is directing Christians to teach truth and sound morality, in contrast to the false teachers they reference in Titus 1. All of these things are supposed to be taught and learned even though he doesn't use the word "teach," "learn" or "instruct" in every verse. Each group is given different things to learn/emulate, but it doesn't mean that the morals aren't expected of all of them. I would argue they are things to strive for that are in contrast against the culture around them that is easy to fall into. I disagree withe the direction of your logic that uses comparison in that vein and I think if applied across scripture it reflects unfavorably and untruthfully toward both sexes, and doesn't produce a helpful frame for learning truth of God's hope and design for humanity. It's good to focus on "we should be helping everyone develop a positive mindset toward their spouse and think the best of them and their intentions and try to meet their needs, desires and build each other up," but it's not as helpful or true, I believe, to focus on women being more depraved in their ability to love or know what love looks like.

Men and women are both teaching in Titus 2, and are probably teaching about different things that are of different importance to each sex. My guess is that they are addressing areas that are often discussed and taught about in their circles and they should reflect God's truth in their teaching rather than submitting themselves and their teaching to the falsehoods around them; not that the other groups spoken to don't deal with the same issues at times and also need to work in those areas.
Last edited by Plumpurple on Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Submission or Love?

Post by mwpastor »

It's really interesting to notice something like Paul gives different lists to the men and the women in Titus. I think it's a whole different thing to make broad conclusions about what are instrinsically male and female characteristics based on what he says and what he doesn't say.

maybe he doesn't need to tell the husbands to love their wives because the men's ministry was started a while ago, and that is already a part of the curriculum.
maybe the husbands are so drunk and immature in their faith that they needed to get sober and grow up before the stuff about loving their wives. Why else would he start with teaching them to be sober.....

those seem at least as likely to me as the idea that knowing how to love a wife is more self evident to men than women. (in case anyone misreads, these options are mostly a joke to illustrate that we can't make conclusions from what Paul did not say).


This is a letter from a pastor to pastor. It is addressing issues which Paul was familiar with and likely people he was familiar with. I think it's pretty dangerous to make universal statements about husbands, wives, and which things men should only talk about with men and women should only talk about with women. (I'm also not saying Titus isn't inspired and authoritative, and important and there is much we can learn...I just don't think it's saying that.
Prov519
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Re: Submission or Love?

Post by Prov519 »

mwpastor wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:49 pm It's really interesting to notice something like Paul gives different lists to the men and the women in Titus. I think it's a whole different thing to make broad conclusions about what are instrinsically male and female characteristics based on what he says and what he doesn't say.

maybe he doesn't need to tell the husbands to love their wives because the men's ministry was started a while ago, and that is already a part of the curriculum.
maybe the husbands are so drunk and immature in their faith that they needed to get sober and grow up before the stuff about loving their wives. Why else would he start with teaching them to be sober.....

those seem at least as likely to me as the idea that knowing how to love a wife is more self evident to men than women. (in case anyone misreads, these options are mostly a joke to illustrate that we can't make conclusions from what Paul did not say).


This is a letter from a pastor to pastor. It is addressing issues which Paul was familiar with and likely people he was familiar with. I think it's pretty dangerous to make universal statements about husbands, wives, and which things men should only talk about with men and women should only talk about with women. (I'm also not saying Titus isn't inspired and authoritative, and important and there is much we can learn...I just don't think it's saying that.
First, I would mention that Paul tells both sexes to be "sober" in this passage of scripture; In some places that means "serious" or "disciplined" or of a "sound mind". At any rate, it's not a subject for "jokes". I actually stated more than once that Paul DID tell husbands to love their wives. I also stated that It was "puzzling" to me as to why he didn't command older men to show younger men how. But the fact is, he did command "aged women" to do so. That is the point; never mind what he "did not say". Again, I don't know why he didn't and said so above. As to being "dangerous". I would say that failing to attempt to flesh out this particular passage of scripture, which has to do with preventing the deterioration of families, in a serious manner, is more dangerous.
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